Classic interview: Jim Clark and Graham Hill

Jim Clark and Graham Hill went into the 1962 South African Grand Prix vying for the world title.

BRM driver Hill won that particular battle and would go on to take the 1968 title with Lotus, while Clark reigned supreme with Lotus in 1963 and 1965.

Before all that, AUTOSPORT's David Phipps asked them a range of questions about the sport. Their honest answers now provide an interesting contrast to the opinions and attitudes of the current F1 field, which will be battling it out at Silverstone this weekend.

JIM CLARK

AUTOSPORT: Jim, why do you go motor racing? What do you like about it?

Jim Clark: When I started it was just a matter of curiosity. I wanted to see what racing was like, but I never had any ambition to become a grand prix driver. In fact, even in 1959 I still had no real desire to do so. In those days I had never even driven a single-seater - I didn't do so until 1960.

Nowadays there are a lot of reasons why I like racing. I get a tremendous kick out of it. I like the technical side of it too - not that I know much about it; working with Colin Chapman, you know, and seeing the way he goes about things, explaining why something works, and something else doesn't - that sort of thing. From the driving point of view there is a continual striving to reach perfection, although I don't think one can ever achieve this.

The money comes into it, too, now, though it didn't when I started.

AS: Before you started, were you a keen driver on the road?

JC: Oh, yes. I used to do a bit of rallying and so on. In fact, even as a kid on a pushbike I used to race people about. I think the urge to go fast has always been there.

AS: Having said what you like about motor racing, what don't you like?

JC: This is difficult. I don't know, I like most things about it.

AS: This is a chance to air some complaints and grievances, if you have any.

JC: Complaints and grievances? I don't like some press reports. I can't understand why a newspaper sends a man hundreds of miles just to fill a two-inch space. Half the time they don't even give the results accurately.

AS: Would you prefer the press to ask you more questions?

JC: Well, I think it would help. At times, obviously, I would rather they didn't. But it might help to get the facts right. Even the technical press get things wrong sometimes, though I realise only too well we can all make mistakes at times.

AS: Do you ever analyse your driving?

JC: Not really. Sometimes, after a race, I try to work out if I could have gone faster, or done better. Sometimes, even when I have won, I am not particularly happy because I feel I could have driven better. It almost gives me more satisfaction to feel I have done a good job, even if I have only finished fourth or fifth.

AS: When you go to a new circuit, how long does it take you to get down to a good time?

JC: Well, I wouldn't say I pride myself, but I think I can learn a circuit as quickly as - probably slightly quicker than - the average person. I can go fairly quickly right away, even on a circuit which I've never seen before. Until 1960 I'd never driven at Silverstone, but I didn't find this as much of a handicap as I had expected when I did go there.

AS: What would you say is your line round a circuit, by comparison with the average line?

JC: Nowadays I think I probably go into the corners earlier than I used to.

AS: Less of a sweep, you mean?

JC: Yes, less of a sweep - in fact, trying to shorten the distance round the circuit. I also find that I am going further into the corner under braking - starting to turn with the brakes still on.

AS: Which is why you sometimes begin to lock up the inside front wheel?

JC: Yes, because I'm still braking hard as I'm turning into the corner. Sometimes, if I find I am not going quickly enough, instead of braking later I try to get off the brakes earlier, which means I go into the corner quicker.

AS: What is your ideal car? Do you like a car to understeer, or oversteer?

JC: Well, when I started I used to prefer an oversteering car. At first it was very difficult for me to drive a Lotus. It was fabulous to drive on tramlines, but as soon as you started to get the back out it became very twitchy.

I feel that I can get somewhere near the limit with an oversteering car. Mind you, it mustn't oversteer too much.

As far as Formula 1 is concerned a slight tendency to understeer is probably a good thing, because understeer can be corrected without losing too much time, whereas correcting oversteer is liable to waste time.

AS: And power?

JC: Yes. And there's another thing. You can make an understeering car oversteer, but you can't make an oversteering car understeer - at least I can't.

AS: Do you worry about getting the Lotus 25 out of shape?

JC: Not as much as in the 18, or even the 24. In fact, it feels to drift more than any of them. I don't mind the tail coming out in the corner, as long as I've got enough arm movement to deal with it.

AS: How much do you have to alter your Lotus technique when you drive a car like the Aston Martin [GT]?

JC: Oh, it's completely different. At Goodwood this year it took me the whole of the first practice session to get back into the groove of driving an Aston. At first I was trying to drive it round the corners like a Lotus!

AS: Instead of throwing it around, and using the power to promote roadholding?

JC: Oh, you do that to a certain extent in the Lotus as well. You know, it gives you a better bite through a corner if you can get on the throttle.

AS: Does the tail of the 25 come out much if you lift off in a corner?

JC: No, not very much. It all depends on the attitude you're in. If you're still understeering, obviously it won't come out very much, but if you're right on the limit it will. I used this technique to promote oversteer on an understeering car when I want it.

AS: Would you rather have larger engines for Formula 1?

JC: Yes, I think so. I can't say I like driving the 1.5-litre but I've always enjoyed driving big cars.

AS: Would you like the Lotus 25 better, do you think, with a 2.5-litre engine?

JC: I think it would change it slightly. For instance, I think you would have to finish braking earlier, and get back on the power to set the car up properly. But basically I think it would be better.

AS: Did you find a big difference between the 1.5-litre and the 2.5-litre Lotus 18 you drove in 1960?

JC: Yes. In the 1.5 you tended to concentrate more on the cornering. Also you had to concentrate on being in the right rev range, because the 1.5 wasn't such a torquey engine; you also had to use the gearbox more and you concentrate on getting out of the corner as fast as possible.

I do the same thing now in Formula 1. I check my revs at a certain point coming out of a corner, especially if I am trying anything new, to see whether or not it improves matters.

AS: Don't you feel that if you'd applied that mentality to the 2.5, you could have made it go faster?

JC: Yes, maybe, but I still had my L-plates up in 1960. I was still learning; I still am, in fact.

AS: If and when you win the world championship, would you like to retire?

JC: It's very difficult to say. In a way I probably would, but I think I might miss it too much. I also feel that if you do win it you should go on for at least another year, because the crowd like to have the world champion there.

AS: How important is the world championship to you?

JC: Well, now that it is suddenly within my grasp it is becoming more and more important each day. But I have no burning desire to be world champion. I wouldn't like it to become an obsession. It takes a tremendous amount of luck to win the championship, no matter who you are.

I can go through the season and give you a list of reasons why Graham should have won and a list of reasons why I should have won; there is a lot of luck attached to it.

AS: You think luck has a lot to do with it. Are you superstitious?

JC: When I say "luck", it is really circumstances that at times are for you and at others against you. No, I am not superstitious, although I could quite easily become so if I didn't think it was a bad thing for one's frame of mind.

AS: How much is the world championship affecting your life? Does it stop you sleeping?

JC: Oh, no. The worst thing is that people keep asking me who is going to win in South Africa. If I knew I would be a happy man.

AS: Will you try harder to win in South Africa than you have in previous races because the championship hinges on it?

JC: I hope not. The thought of championships or prize money never enters my head when I'm driving. I drive because I like it, and if one day I want to be the fellow in front it's because I want to beat him, not because there's more money for being first than there is second.

AS: Can you be as genuinely friendly with other drivers as you can with someone you are not competing against?

JC: Yes, I am very friendly with most of them, although when it comes to the technicalities of racing, I always feel they are talking with their tongues in their cheeks.

AS: Do you ever feel nervous before a race?

JC: It varies. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Funnily enough, it doesn't necessarily have to be an important race. Generally, though, I don't feel as nervous now as I used to.

It's always worse if I am in pole position then if I am at the back of the grid. If you are in pole position you are expected to do well. I was twitched up before this year's British Grand Prix because I'd been having trouble with the engine in practice.

AS: But it was alright in the race, wasn't it?

JC: Well, it wasn't really, because the car was still slower on the straight than the 24 had been in the April meeting. Actually, I think we had a high tailwind in the April meeting and a head wind in the Grand Prix. This may have had something to do with it, but in practice I was over a second slower than at the previous meeting, when I was driving well within myself.

In the end I equalled my April times, but only by driving rather brutally; anyway, I didn't expect to do well in the race.

AS: What actually do you feel nervous about?

JC: Most of all I worry about the car breaking. In practice at Rouen my steering broke, and for weeks afterwards, even on the road, I would go along in a straight line twitching my hands to make sure the steering was working.

At Rouen I was doing this all through the race. The other thing that really terrifies me is oil; if someone suddenly starts dropping oil, if I see a streak of oil in one corner, I really get worried.

AS: Have you had much experience of coming on oil suddenly?

JC: Only bad experiences.

AS: Do you ever feel frightened during the race, apart from things like mechanical failure or oil?

JC: No, I'm too tied up with the job in hand.

AS: Do you feel you concentrate 100 per cent?

JC: No. I don't think anyone can concentrate 100 per cent for two hours; in fact statistics say that very few people can concentrate for more than two minutes without letting their minds wander.

AS: Do you like driving at close quarters, or slipstreaming other cars?

JC: It depends on the circuit. It's good fun at times, but I prefer to be out in front, nice and lonely, where I can concentrate on my own driving.

AS: What is the ideal race as far as you are concerned - taking the lead at the start and staying there until the finish?

JC: Well, that's the way I like to win races, although my ideal is to start at the back and come through the field to win.

AS: If and when you do retire, will you be able to go to races without taking part?

JC: Not very often. No matter what I'm doing, I'd much rather take part than watch.

AS: Do you have much of a battle with your parents, and home life, as against racing?

JC: Well, in a way they are now resigned to the fact that I am racing, but my mother still worries about it all the time. My father likes to talk about my racing with his friends, but in his heart of hearts he would like me to give up.

AS: Does it upset you, the fact your mother worries?

JC: Not really, because she worries about everything - even crossing the street. But it would upset me if my father got really worried, because he doesn't normally show that he's worried.

I tell them as little about racing as I can. I never telephone home after a race, because they would be really worried if I couldn't get through one night.

AS: You accept that racing is dangerous?

JC: Yes. So is crossing the street.

AS: Agreed, but you're saying that as something of a defence mechanism, aren't you?

JC: Yes. I admit it is dangerous. I accept that, but I try to make it as safe as possible.

AS: Do you ever feel a need to nurse your car?

JC: Sometimes. At most races this year I have tried to nurse it. If I'm in the lead I make a conscious effort to take things easily. I don't just go flat out from start to finish.

AS: You don't believe in building up a lead against eventualities?

JC: No, because in the time that you're building up that lead you may have your eventuality.

AS: By taking more out of the car?

JC: Yes. But don't misunderstand me. I like to get enough in hand so that if something starts to go wrong the man behind me doesn't know immediately. This has happened at least twice this year.

At Aintree, in the first few laps, the gearbox got very hot and everything began to feel tight, so I slowed right down. Afterwards Graham thanked me for not lapping him, but it wasn't just a matter of being kind to him!

It was much the same at Watkins Glen. The clutch wasn't working, and in the last few laps I though the synchromesh rings were going to break; this lets you get two gears at once, which is marvellous! Fortunately, they held out.

AS: How do you reckon to beat somebody in a similar car? Most of the Formula 1 cars are very closely matched these days.

JC: Before a race I'm often convinced that I can't win, but once the flag falls and I get the bit between my teeth it's a different matter. I just go out and take things as they come.

GRAHAM HILL

AS: Graham, why do you go motor racing? What do you like about it?

GH: That's a very, very difficult question. I suppose it's a bit trite to say I enjoy it, but I do enjoy it. To me it's fulfilling an ambition. If I get a bit airy-fairy about it, I think it's a means of expressing oneself. And, of course, it is a means of trying to prove that you're better than somebody else.

In addition to all this, the actual sensation of driving is a big lure for me. The sensation of taking the car through a corner and trying to improve on it - trying to reach perfection, lap after lap, and never really achieving it.

For instance, if I were to lap Goodwood at, say, 1m24s, I would then try to lap it at 1m23.9s. Now, the moment you knock a tenth of a second off - even a small time like that - the circuit presents a slightly different picture. It changes; it really becomes a slightly different circuit.

You never really get to know a circuit because you're always aiming to go round a little bit faster, and every time you do go a little bit faster the circuit becomes slightly different.

Every time you go round a corner you're trying to do it better than the last time. I'm sure that nobody has ever done a perfect lap anywhere, and if I get one corner off perfectly once in a race, that is an achievement. It depends what sort of standards you set yourself, but I think that anybody who can do two consecutive corners perfectly has really achieved something.

And, of course, racing is my profession; it is the only thing I know; in effect it is a way of life. It pays very well too; I couldn't possibly find another job that pays as well.

AS: But that wasn't the main reason when you started?

GH: No, I'd had no idea that I was actually going to earn money at motor racing when I started. I was introduced to motor racing through a drivers' school. I read an advertisement and went down to Brands Hatch and had £1's worth of motor racing, which entitled me to four laps of Brands Hatch at 5 shillings a lap.

I'd only just learned to drive a car at the time, so I can't say it was a life-long ambition or anything like that. I knew nothing about motor racing; I'd never seen a motor race and I'd never really seen a racing car, but I stepped into this Formula 3 car and did the four laps, and there and then I more or less made my mind up that I wanted to go motor racing.

AS: What prompted you to go to Brands Hatch when you saw this advertisement?

GH: Well, I was rowing at the time. But the season finished somewhere in the region of August/September and I was left my nothing to do with my spare time for a couple of months. I was then working at Smiths as a technical assistant in a department working on car heaters.

The motoring magazines passed through the office, and somebody pointed the advertisement out to me and said 'Why don't you try this?' So I did.

AS: Did you have a car of your own on the road?

GH: I had a car yes, a 1934 Morris 8 tourer that I'd bought a few months before when I came out of the Navy, after two years as an engine room artificer. At one stage, when I was on a cruiser, I had control of a turbine; at that time I had 20,000hp at my fingertips! I've never had quite so much power to play with since.

AS: We started with what you like about racing; is there anything you don't like about it?

GH: Well, I don't like oil on the circuit, but I can't really blame anyone for that. That's my major dislike.

AS: Anything else?

GH: Well, of course, there's the old question of the police at French races and at Monza. I don't fully understand the organisers' problem; presumably they have to have police there for some reason that I don't understand, but I think their attitude is disgraceful.

All the people concerned with racing are doing it all the year round; we know roughly what goes on and how we should behave; we don't need to be pushed and bullied and spat on and locked up; I'm only too pleased that there are no police on any British circuits.

They are very, very helpful in directing and controlling the traffic, but we're fortunate enough to be able to run the meetings without having them on the circuit.

AS: Do you ever analyse your driving?

GH: Analyse it? How do you mean? I'm fairly self-critical I think; I don't think I've been really satisfied. I always think that I could have done a better job.

AS: Do you analyse it technically, I mean? Do you sit down and try to work out the way you're driving the car, or whether you would like it to handle differently?

GH: Oh, I'm continually thinking about the car - and, I suppose about the way I'm driving it. I don't think a lot about my style. I try to be precise, and accurate, and tidy, because I feel that this is the best way to be; it also requires the least effort, and this pays off in long races.

On the whole I probably think more about the car in relation to my driving than about my driving in relation to the car. I can alter the car, but I don't know whether I can improve my driving. I want the car to fit in to my way of driving. It will then do exactly what I want it to do.

AS: We were talking earlier about perfection, about getting round a corner perfectly; what is your criterion of perfection? Is it the feeling that the car transmits to you, that it couldn't go any faster?

GH: Yes, I am trying to do my best, the car shows me whether I am doing my best and the rev counter tells me whether I'm actually coming out of the corner quicker. I always check the revs at a certain point on the exit of a corner.

AS: Do you do this regularly?

GH: Yes. If I really thought about it I could probably tell what revs I come out of the majority of corners on all the Grand Prix circuits. Of course, the overall criterion is the stopwatch.

Normally I go into a corner slowly and come out fast, which I think is probably the best way to do it. I have tried going in quickly and coming out a bit slower, but I think the other way is both quicker and safer.

AS: Apart from that, how do you tell when you're on the limit, when the car couldn't go any faster round a corner without going off?

GH: When the car feels as though it's on a knife-edge, and when I'm using the last inch of road coming out of the corner, I know when the car is just about ready to go off the road, and, of course, I know just how much power I'm getting through.

AS: When you go to a new circuit, how long does it take you to get down to a good time?

GH: Well, of course, it depends on the circuit. I'm not hedging, but of course the Nurburgring takes a lot longer than a circuit like Watkins Glen. Roughly I'd say that after about 10 laps I'm probably getting down to a time somewhere in the middle of the field. After 20 or so I should be doing a quick time.

AS: What would you say is your line around a circuit, by comparison with the average?

GH: Oh, about the same I would have thought.

AS: I seem to recall that some years ago you had a line for Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch which was considered completely different from anybody else's, much more of a sweeping line than, say, Stirling [Moss] would take.

GH: I think this brings us back to the business of going in slowly and coming out fast. He was probably quicker over the first half of the corner and I might have been quicker on the second half; I don't know whether I was or not, I should imagine that I wasn't, because he was going a lot quicker than I was, if I remember.

He is a better driver anyway. But I felt I was getting the power on sooner or more power on sooner, which is important at Paddock because there is an uphill section afterwards.

AS: What's your ideal car? Do you have a car to oversteer or understeer?

GH: Well, I think those days, the days of accepting a car as it is, are over. Practically all drivers have a different way of driving, so what is oversteer for one person can be understeer for another in the same car.

I think understeer and oversteer are mainly a function of the amount of power that is being used. Early this year BRM did some testing at Zandvoort, and I tried Richie Ginther's car. Richie was complaining of understeer, but I thought the car was oversteering. We were both right because we drive differently.

On the whole I would like to think that I prefer a car with neutral characteristics. The whole basis of motor racing - the criterion of going round a circuit quickly - is the amount of power you can get on the road. If you have a chronic oversteering car, you have to lift off - otherwise the back will come round. In an understeering car you can kill a lot of the understeer by setting the car up and then putting the power on; this holds it in a power drift which in effect kills the understeer. But there are some corners which you just cannot get round without backing off and starting again.

I like to be able to set the car up at the entrance to a corner and go through the corner in a power drift.

Nowadays I think it is essential for a driver to be able to set the car up for his own particular needs. I think the days have gone when a driver used to turn up, put his gloves and hat on, do a few laps and then go home. Nowadays a driver must make the car suit his style, because competition is so fierce that every little tenth is going to count.

AS: Would you rather have bigger engines for Formula 1?

GH: Yes, I would. I think I would like something in the region of 2.5-3 litres. I think Formula 1 should be the premier class of racing, and at present it isn't, not really. The GT Aston Martin I drove at Le Mans this year would do 175mh, whereas the maximum speed of a 1.5-litre Formula 1 car is 160mph at the outside; I don't think that's right.

AS: Do you find a big difference between the 1.5-litre and 2.5-litre cars?

GH: Yes, well, it's difficult to say now, but there is a difference. The big difference comes when you've been driving a 2.5 and you get back into a 1.5. I always got the feeling that I was doing more of a job with a bigger engine.

AS: How important is the world championship to you?

GH: Well, if I don't win it, I don't win it. I'm fairly philosophical about it. Perhaps I don't realise the importance of it; if you've never had anything you don't miss it. I would like to win the championship, I really would, but I'm not going to cry over it if I don't.

There's a good chance that I won't win it, but it's not worrying me. I'm not going to get upset about it, I think that would be foolish.

AS: Does it affect your life very much?

GH: Well, because of the world championship, or because I've won a few races, I seem to be more in the public eye, from which point of view it does affect my life - yes.

AS: Do you like being in the public eye?

GH: Well, yes I suppose I do. I think I would be dishonest if I said no. Sometimes it is a bit of a nuisance, but I try not to think of it as a nuisance because it represents everything that I'm striving for, and I feel that I should accept everything that goes with this. I realise that it helps motor sport, and it's helping me anyway, so who am I to grumble?

AS: Going back to the championship, does it worry you very much - does it stop you sleeping, for instance?

GH: No, not at all.

AS: Will you try harder in South Africa than you might have done in previous races, just because the championship hinges on it?

GH: Well, as I told you earlier, I'm never really satisfied with my performance, though I was a bit more after the Nurburgring; perhaps I was a little less dissatisfied, if you see what I mean. I had a very, very hard race, I didn't make any real mistakes, and I won the race - not by much - but nevertheless I won it. I think one mistake would have lost me the race. It was an extremely hard race, mentally and physically, and that was quite satisfying.

Now at Watkins Glen I drove just as hard but I didn't have the pressure from behind. I drove hard, but I wasn't satisfied. I felt I could have done better.

Now I know that when I go to South Africa, I'm going to try as hard again, or even harder. I hope that I'm always improving, so obviously I always hope that I'm going to do a better job next time. I know what you're getting at and I'm evading it slightly; it might have an effect on me, I don't know. I'll have to tell you after the race.

AS: Can you be as genuinely friendly with over others as you can with someone you're not competing against?

GH: Yes, you can, but there are times when you do notice that you are competitors; when you are both in the public eye, for instance. The point is that a competitive driver is a threat to what you're working for.

There is always that little something, but it certainly doesn't stop any friendships. I don't know of anyone who isn't friendly with anybody else in motor racing.

AS: Yes, the relationship between the present Grand Prix drivers seems to be quite remarkable.

GH: I think it's exceptional. I think it's terrific.

AS: Do you ever feel jealous about somebody else winning?

GH: Yes, I suppose I do. I am human; I have nasty thoughts just like anybody else. At Watkins Glen I was hoping that Jimmy's car was going to break. I would rather beat him fair and square, but as I couldn't I was hoping his car would break; that's being very honest with you.

AS: Do you ever feel nervous before a race?

GH: Yes.

AS: What about?

GH: Well, not exactly nervous. I don't get twitchy or anything. I don't feel particularly hungry, I don't feel like chatting too much - I get what we used to call in rowing 'the needle'. I used to get more needle when I was rowing than I do when I am motor racing. I can't eat a dry sandwich. I'd rather have a bowl of soup.

And there is a certain apprehension, a build-up of whatever athletes get when they enter a race - I think everybody should have it. I think it would be very abnormal if someone didn't get it.

AS: Do you ever start a race feeling nervous of crashing, or nervous of hurting yourself?

GH: Well, yes, the thought doe cross my mind occasionally.

AS: Do you worry very much about your car breaking?

GH: I do think of it occasionally, especially on a long straight, where there is a little time to think about it. And sometimes I wonder whether the brakes are going to work when I put my foot on them.

AS: Do you feel that you can concentrate 100 per cent, throughout a race?

GH: No. I would like to be able to, but I don't think I can.

AS: You give the impression that you are. Your face never appears to move throughout a race.

GH: No, it doesn't. I try to concentrate because I think this is part of the key to success.

AS: Do you find yourself thinking about other things not connected with the race?

GH: It depends on the heat of the race really; I think about a lot of things concerning the race. As soon as I see a pit signal I start working things out.

AS: Do you like driving at close quarters, or slipstreaming other cars?

GH: I don't mind. It depends who it's with. I don't mind driving at close quarters at all, but I think perhaps if I felt I couldn't trust one of the others drivers it would make me a little wary of him.

AS: What is the ideal race for you? Do you like to go into the lead and stay there all through, as at Monza, or do you like to come from behind?

GH: I've never really thought about it. I think coming from behind would probably be a bit more satisfying.

AS: Do you have any idea of retiring if you win the world championship?

GH: No, definitely not. I enjoy motor racing.

AS: If and when you do retire, would you be able to go to races without wanting to drive?

GH: Oh, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't answer that. I think I'd have to be pretty fed-up with it or pretty stale if I ever got to that state. I even enjoy driving my saloon car around London.

AS: Do you have any sort of a battle with your home life against racing?

GH: No.

AS: It's all accepted?

GH: Oh yes, oh definitely, yes. The only thing is that I would like to see the children more often.

AS: Do you consider racing dangerous?

GH: Yes, it's dangerous.

AS: Do you try to put it in one corner of your mind and forget about it?

GH: No, it's a calculated risk. It's dangerous to fly, it's dangerous to go out in a car; we all do these things.

AS: Do you ever feel a need to nurse your car?

GH: I always try to take no more out of the car than is absolutely necessary.

AS: Do you believe in building up a big lead?

GH: I would like to be able to build up a lead of 20 seconds, and if I could get 30 seconds ahead I would feel I was doing very well.

AS: How do you reckon to beat another driver in a similar car?

GH: By driving harder!

To see how Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton answered the same questions in 2013, take a look at the June 27 issue of AUTOSPORT magazine.

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